VBAC Myths and Realities: Insightful Tips with Meagan Heaton | 179

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And you guys know I am semi sort of obsessed with VBACs, so welcome Megan.

Meagan: Well, thank you. And it's kind of funny that you say that because when I get on the podcast and I'm recording, I'm like, I'm so excited. I'm so excited, and I'm like always saying, I'm so excited. Everyone's like, yeah, okay, sure, you're always, but truly, we are so excited, right?

When we're talking to people about these topics that we love

Trish: well, and that's funny. I don't record all the time, so for me, it might have been a month since I said I'm so excited.

Meagan: Right.

Will tell moms who are going for their vbac. So I'm gonna let you kick it off.

Meagan: Yeah. I mean, talking about ridiculous things, that's, that's literally something that we hear every day where I'm like, what? And I just kind of like. Fist on my face, and I'm like, why? Why would they say that? Or

Trish: no, I can't wait to tell you some of the ones I've heard too.

Meagan: Yes. Or like, where did that even come from, you know? And so I was telling you before we, , kind of did a post the other day about this. Like, what are some of the ridiculous things that you've been told about VBAC or roadblocks that have been told? Like you can't, the reason why you can't vbac?

And I. This could be a road roadblock and it could be something that maybe is true, but number one, it's your pelvis didn't get a baby out of it the first time. It cannot get a baby out of it. It's like impossible. And I personally was told that I was told by multiple doctors I would never get a baby out of my pelvis.

Trish: Yeah. And can I, from the labor nurse side, say my thoughts on that one?

Meagan: Yes, yes.

Trish: I, I love that they say that because if we could go back and be a fly on the wall, my guess is they were the problem the first time too, and now they're trying to be the problem the second time.

Meagan: Yeah. Well, yeah, and I have seen that where, we look back at what happened, like why, why was our pelvis too small, right? Why did we have, and it's like, well, we broke waters really early and then we just sat on our back and we had a posterior baby or an asynclitic baby, and then we didn't do anything about it.

And it's like, well, okay. And you know, sometimes poster you, I'm sure you've seen it like poster babies can be very difficult to get out. Of a pelvis.

Trish: Yeah, no, I, number five was straight op and thank God she was number five. 'cause I would've went back to the or.

But at the same time, what were all the things leading up that caused that baby? To go in that position? Or did we rush a baby's natural rotation process coming down and out? Yes. By breaking the water or by,

Trish: or by being induced in general. I was gonna say by being induced. Mm-hmm.

Meagan: Way too early or, or even just, yeah, stressing.

Stressing the mom and the baby out, or sticking them in one spot and not rotating. You know, there's just so much where it's like, well, was the pelvis small or did we. Let that patient down by not trusting the process and working with nature's course.

Trish: Yeah. And I know for a fact that a huge problem is with the positioning side, with them not moving you enough.

Why are you in there all day? But I like to be bedside. So when I say this, I'm saying this with lots of love, but also aggravation. A lot of labor nurses do not wanna have to go in and out of the room to adjust the monitor, so they will have mom be like, you really need to stay right here because we need to see what's going on with baby, instead of like using their creativity or squatting on the floor and holding the monitor, or even showing a family member or showing her how to tilt the monitor.

And it's so annoying to me because you're literally damning her birth in some ways.

Meagan: Yeah. Well, and as a doula. Side of things. I've been at bursts where I'm like, okay, we've got this coupling pattern, we've got back labor. You know,

And I'm like, okay, how long has this mom been on a monitor? She's been on it for hours. We've had great tracing. Let's get this bomb in a different position to help speed her labor up, make it easier on baby to calm down, you know? But yeah.

Trish: Well, even if the baby hasn't looked great on the monitor, one of the best things we can do is get her into an upright gravity assisted position because the baby's gonna get more oxygen instead of, oh, let's just roll her to her left side.

Like, no, let's get her up. Mm-hmm. And hold the freaking monitor if you have to.

Meagan: Yeah. I, I love that so much. Mm-hmm. Because it, yeah, it happens and, yeah. It's frustrating. Yeah, it's, I'm sure it's frustrating on your end, like especially going in and working with the, being so close with your patients and then having something like that happen.

Trish: But again, I know there are situations getting into an upright gravity assisted position can open your pelvis by 28 to 30%.

Yeah.

Meagan: And rotation of our fe like femur rotation in and out like that changes our pelvis itself. Right. That outlet, like if our outlet has a smaller diameter because of the way our legs are or our body is, and we're not using gravity. We're lessening our chance to get our babies out.

Trish: It's just, it's really, really frustrating.

Meagan: I, I was gonna say that they have to get an epidural. Or they can't get an epidural because it's, it, it is crazy how vastly different it is depending on the person. Like you can vbac you have to get an epidural though the second, the second you get here and it's like. Okay. You know? And then, and then of course there's the opposite of like, and in my opinion, I think it's used sometimes as a fear tactic of like, sure, you can do it, but you're gonna feel every second of it and you're gonna have to go unmedicated.

Quick. So on the flip side, if it truly is an emergency, you are not gonna care. You will not care. You just want the baby out. You wanna be okay. And so personally, the chances of that situation happening is like way higher if you are not doing the things that you can to help your body along. So it's really frustrating.

Meagan: It is frustrating and I see so many things mentally roadblocks, right? Where we are being told that we had an emergent cesarean before, and so because it was emergent before, it's probably not a good idea to VBAC this time or whatever it may be. But it's actually most of the time not emergent.

'cause there is time. It's like pressing, like, okay, we're not having these things that we want. We can get that spinal, we can go in, have a very peaceful, controlled cesarean, but we use the emergency word too much.

And I mean, I've heard, I don't know if you have as a doula, but as a labor nurse, I can't even tell you how many times I've heard We don't want a dead baby. Oh, oh. It is the fear. Uh, yeah, you're right. Yeah, you're right. We don't, you're right. That's obvious. That's why we did this, this, but, but is that really the case, sir?

Like ma'am, are we really at a point where we're gonna have a dead baby? Me laboring longer, me moving, me doing all these things. We're really at risk for a dead baby like I and I. I hope you guys listening understand that I absolutely. I. I am a labor and delivery nurse. I love what I like do and what I'm capable of when you need it.

But this fear mongering and this coercion and this bullying needs to freaking go. It does.

Yeah. It's so slim. Yeah. And so, and then we don't want it to become an emergency, and that just that fear and it's like, what does that even do to us internally? Does that help us get our baby out? No. Does that help our contractions continue? No. No.

Trish: Because adrenaline and fear, fear goes up and that suppresses oxytocin.

Exactly. So

Meagan: I, I remember with my second C-section, he came in and he was just letting me know it wasn't happening for me and all the things and. Told my husband, I was putting my baby's life at risk, so he used my husband against me. Oh

Trish: yes, this is another one. Yeah. So, and then my husband's like,

Meagan: oh my gosh.

Like, I know you want this birth, but hello Megan. Why would you do that? And is having a vaginal delivery more

Trish: important than a healthy baby, right? Yeah. And so that

'cause my body was like, Nope, I'm not safe. I'm not comfortable. Yeah. I can't do this right now.

Trish: Which is amazing. You guys listening right now. I wanna, I really wanna stop and talk about how freaking amazing our bodies are and I tell my moms all the, like, I get lit up talking about this. This is one of my favorite topics is that our bodies are so designed amazingly.

And just like a mama bear who finds her den, she doesn't find a den with spotlights and people talking and yelling at her, she finds a quiet, dark den. And she feels safe. And she labors and she gives birth the same. If you've ever had a dog that gets pregnant, they don't announce it. They go off by themselves.

Because the most important things to us is safety for us and our baby. And so for those of you guys listening, your body is created to do the exact same thing. But here's where our lizard brain comes in. When our lizard brain thinks we're at threat.

It doesn't matter if it's a lion coming into a den or it's a doctor coming in like an asshole to say some stupid thing. Or it could just be chaos in your labor room. It could be you and your partner not on the same page. It could be a lot of different things, but your body will respond the way it's built to respond, which is.

Meagan: Right. Absolutely. And that I see it happen time and time again where moms aren't feel feeling safe and we have a stall or someone came in and said something

Trish: and, and don't you feel so like, just frustrated?

Yes. Yes. Like, and our, and our hands are tied at that point.

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. We had a client recently that really wanted to labor at home as long as possible. She was a vbac. She kind, she got all educated, kind of like dove in head first, which I think is amazing and definitely necessary. And the provider started talking to her about the dangers of, of her laboring at home and made her, even though she was once feeling safe and confident in her brain.

Right, and, and I have my old partner, Julie Frankham, was told that specifically by a hospital midwife, if you have your baby at home, you and your baby will die. So they say these big things and then we're left and we're like, wait, wait, wait, wait. But these guys are the medical professionals. These guys know what they're talking about.

Maybe I should not be so stubborn with myself, even though that's what originally felt right to us. Right, like she wanted to labor at home. So then when labor started, she was very anxious and didn't feel safe in her own home, which is

This is why I give away my B birth coach class. If your partner is not as educated as you are, if they don't understand what intervention is used and why it's used, and when you can wait and what questions you can ask, or if they don't understand that providers will lie, and providers will say bullshit.

Then when it hits and it comes to it, now you're not only fighting the staff. Your own partner thinks you're being unwise. And that is where, that's where most part, most women cave, because now they're like, well, what if, what if, God forbid, the worst happens and my partner's gonna blame me for the rest of my life?

But making fear-based decisions is always wrong.

Meagan: Yeah, totally. I mean, I was in that exact position. My husband didn't educate himself. He didn't care to educate himself. I love him dearly, but he was like, I'm not doing that. Like whatever. If you wanna go take a childbirth education class, can't I hear so

Trish: many partners say that?

Meagan: Yeah. And then when it came down to it and he was sitting there telling him what I was doing, willing to do to our baby, Amy scared the living crap out of him. And so he did. He turned on me and it wasn't like he turned on me 'cause he wanted to attack me. He was like, babe. Like, this is our baby.

Yeah. As far as educating themselves. But he dove in a lot deeper. He attended the doula visits. He, he understood I'd send him visits. Right. And then when it came down to the birth, he was like, yeah. And he was so confident and, which helped me. Yeah. So confident in labor. Smoothly. Right. And so, yeah. So powerful.

So powerful. I really think the partners need to understand. Like just the facts about

Trish: all of it. All of it, yeah. And here's the other thing. During labor, her job is to labor. And you as the partner, your job is to step in, support, comfort, and advocate for her. She doesn't need to have to fight these battles during labor.

That everyone has to be induced. No one goes into labor anymore. What? I know you guys can't, you guys can't see Megan 'cause I haven't gotten to using videos yet, but Megan literally dropped her entire head.

Meagan: No one goes into labor on their own. So everyone has to be induced. Mm-hmm. Wow. They, they legit said that.

Wow.

Trish: I was like. What is happening? Like, do these doctors not realize social media at the very least exists?

Meagan: Yeah, seriously. My, my concern would be if anyone would believe that. So as a listener, please don't believe stuff like that. Well, my bigger

Meagan: right now?

Am I being punked?

Trish: Uhhuh?

Meagan: But he was dead serious. Why are you a, I would like to ask that provider why they're a ob. Why are you in this area if you don't even believe that the woman's body can go into labor on itself? Well, because they're surgeons. They

Trish: are, they're surgeons, and yeah. I mean, the reason I didn't go, my plan originally was to become a midwife.

And then I realized that to be the type of midwife I wanted to be, I would not be able to have the family life I want to have. And so I chose not to do that because I knew I was not gonna be someone who's just inducing for my own schedule. So, all right, now it's your turn. What do you got for me?

Meagan: Yeah.

You can't have a baby vaginally because you have a smaller window of like pregnancy, right? So they got pregnant, they wanted their babies a little closer, and they flat out tell them, you cannot, you cannot ever, and they act like they're a ticking time bomb. Yeah. And it makes it scary, like in that end of pregnancy, like, wait, am I safe to keep going? Is my ute, did I really get pregnant too close? You know, and there are studies showing, stats on that, but like. They're not just ticking time bombs, you know? So this one, this follower said, my OB said, VBACs are risky.

You know, so that's another, that is another thing that VBACs are too risky. C-sections are safe, which is not true if you're a candidate. Yes. Well, and in so many ways, there are a lot of risks for C-sections we're not even talking about. That's what I'm saying.

Trish: That's what I'm saying. Yeah. If you're a candidate for a vbac, the risk of a repeat C-section is way higher, and they don't say that.

It's so frustrating to me. This is a major abdominal surgery and the risk is higher for both of you, you and baby. Yeah.

Meagan: Yeah. But we're not talking about that, and so we're getting roadblocked of like, well, oh crap. Is it really safe? Should I really do that? Should I put that baby at risk again? Should I risk my own life, but myself?

Trish: wait call had having a C-section or brought up if she brought it up, a vaginal up,

Meagan: having a, sorry, a VBAC if she even brought up having VBAC.

Okay. Sorry. She would, she would call CPS. Mm-hmm.

Trish: We need to call somebody on that doctor.

Meagan: Yeah. So I have heard that right. A lot of times in areas of like parents or providers not liking what parents are doing, like out of hospital births and then they transfer and they're like, we're gonna call CPS.

I'm. Winging it right now. But there was a lady in South Florida who was going vaginally and they wanted to do a C-section and she was refusing and they called like attorneys and they ended up doing the C-section. What? Yeah, but she ended up winning the, she ended up winning the case later. Wow.

Meagan: It's 'cause she

Trish: was

Meagan: fully bullied and coerced into, yeah.

Trish: And they brought, they brought in like heads of the hospital, all this stuff, and it, it ended up, her rights were trampled on and she won the lawsuit and I'm sure they lost a lot of money on that. But that's the thing. Just because a doctor and a hospital is saying it's, so, it does not always mean it's so, it, it doesn't, there's still people and hospital policies and procedures are not the golden rule.

Meagan: Yeah. We get, we actually just wrote a blog about this too, because policy, it's policy. It's policy, yeah. So tell me from a labor and delivery nurse standpoint, when someone comes in and says it's policy, like what does a patient have? Options for to say, because my opinion is just like, I don't care.

Just say I refuse it. My opinion, I trump your policy. Yeah. I trump it. Yeah. But what, what would you give. Guidance wise to someone who their provider's like, or their staff member is like, Hey, like it's policy. I have to place this, blah, blah, blah. Or you know,

Trish: well, they can say, well, it's also the fact that I have rights as a patient and I have autonomy over my own body, and so I would love for you to chart that.

She, flew from, she was, oh my gosh, I'm blanking. Where was she at? She was in Germany, I believe. Anyway, she was somewhere that they didn't do VBACs and the nearest it, no, it was not Germany. It was like. Or something weird like that. That's what it was. They didn't do VBACs, and if she did have her labor, they would have to fly her somewhere else if there was an emergent.

And so of course she wasn't comfortable with that. It was baby number three. So she flew. She found a doctor in the US where her family was. Her and her two other children flew to the us. They finished out her pregnancy. With this doctor and this doctor was like, yes, I'll do a VBAC two C. No problem. She goes into labor.

The doctor was very apologetic, but sorry. He should have known this and they wouldn't help her. Like her labor was going very slow, which I always say VBACs are slow, but her labor is going really, really slow. They won't do anything to help her. And so the, the. The doula went out and bought like a really nice pump because of course she's doesn't live in the US so she doesn't have all her stuff.

They did nipple stimulation and she ended up delivering that baby vaginally and nurses were cheering her on 'cause they were not okay with everything else. And like people were coming in on their day off to see her because she really fought the policy.

Meagan: Yeah.

Trish: Well at the end of the day,

Meagan: policy is not law.

Meagan: Yeah. It was written in, in a big staff meeting that they all felt like mm-hmm. These are good policies to put in place to protect them. The hospital them,

Trish: not because they're really worried about you. They're worried about the bottom line.

Yeah. So, period.

Meagan: So I think that's just something to know. Like you can always say no. Yeah. I, yeah, I'm not, yeah. Cool with that.

Trish: Yeah. Right, and, and if it's your body. Then that it's your body. Now on the flip side, as a labor and delivery nurse who has seen some really stupid things that people have refused when it was very necessary.

Chances are you have time to wait. You can make some choices here. If the entire team runs into the room and they're throwing on their or gear, one person's doing this, one person's doing that, this is a little different of a situation. There might actually be an emergent situation happening. So you're reading the room now.

Do you have a right to ask what's going on and find out? Yes. And you can ask, do I have time to think about this? And if they're like, no, you do not, then you probably shouldn't refuse. Plain and simple because when shit really hits the fan, you can read the room and you know it. If your doctor has time to come in and roll next to your bed.

Meagan: Yeah. See, and then, but then there's so many times that that happens and it's like, well, it was emergent.

And you're like, how is emergent three hours later? Like, come

Trish: on. No, that's, that's called that. That's not even classified as urgent. And I guarantee, I guarantee. They put on it, either elective or failure to progress.

Meagan: Yep. I, I, I almost guarantee that too. I've seen so many op reports where they're like telling me the story and then I look at the OP report and I'm like, it says elective.

Elective. Yeah. I was like, so did you elect? She's like, no. I was told I had to have one 'cause it was an emergency situation. Yeah. And I'm like, but they,

Trish: they damn well know. They can't chart that.

Meagan: Yeah.

Trish: Well they're not gonna put that, and most people do not have the bandwidth or the forthwith all to go back and look at what was put even.

And they're like, Hmm. Like I'm a little troublemaker. Yeah. But. I, I know that you have a doctor's appointment for your child. Yes. So we need to like start, hop, hop, but, 'cause real mom life here, y'all. Mm-hmm. We, yes, we run online businesses and we educate you, but we also have our own babies. Yeah. So anything else outrageous that you've heard?

Meagan: Oh man. I'm trying to think. I mean, yes, and I'm just probably blanking it just tons of things. Just any reason. So you can't,

Trish: okay. So big baby. Oh. What do you say about that? Because everybody knows what I say about that.

Meagan: I think it's stupid. I think it's absolutely stupid. Me. Yeah. So big baby, small pelvis.

Failure to progress, you know? Oh my God. I think I, I call that failure for the

Trish: staff to do the

We have to induce everybody. Yeah. Which I.

Trish: Like maybe sir, your patients aren't going into labor on their own because you're inducing them all. Yeah.

Meagan: You know, and, and then yeah, yeah. There's then the induce, like you have to be induced or have a baby by 39 weeks, or you can't be induced. Or you can't be induced.

Like sure you can go, but you have to have a baby by 39 weeks and we cannot induce you. So that's what you get. Take it or leave it, you know? And that's, that's all bull crap. Yeah, we do not need to have a timeline on us. That's again, going back to like feeling safe and, and getting rid of cortisol out of our body so we can allow our body to go into labor.

But then yeah, we're drinking castor oil and pumping and doing all these things that we don't really need to be doing.

Trish: Yeah. Which I'm, I'm okay with people trying self induction, but I recommend after 40 weeks 'cause come, hell or high water. Even if you come into the hospital and your body's not ready.

It, it's. Takes us forever and we have stronger stuff than you do, so.

Meagan: Right. But if we're at 37, 38 weeks Yeah. And we're starting to induce because we're scared of a 39 week induction. 'cause they already

Trish: have your C-section on the schedule. That's

Meagan: It's not, yeah. Like why

Trish: Yeah.

Meagan: Why are we doing that?

Trish: Yeah.

Trish: Yeah. It's so frustrating. Okay, so in light that Megan needs to take her baby to the doctors, we are going to Megan tell everyone where they can find you.

Meagan: Yeah, pretty much everywhere at the VBAC link. So THE and VBAC is VBAC. A lot of people spell it V-B-A-C-K, so the VBAC link, and we're pretty much everywhere. YouTube. Instagram, Facebook. We even have a Pinterest, but we don't use it.

Trish: Oh, I love my Pinterest.

Meagan: Or the vbac link.com. You can go there and find the podcast and listen to other stories of people who have maybe been told also that they couldn't do it, and then went forward and learned and.

Did it.

I don't feel she's any different than my other students going for a vaginal delivery. What they have to face is so particular and they just need a lot more. Confidence and handholding. And I, I love, I love that when I first really felt called to build the VBAC lab, I really didn't want it just to be added on to my birth course.

I wanted it to be for those moms. And I love that you have the same. So thank you so much for coming on today, even though I botched our time.

Meagan: Hey, that is okay. Listen, we're, we're busy. Yeah. And we're also different time zones, so that does not help.

Trish: Yeah. Where exactly are you located?

Meagan: Utah.

Trish: Okay. Beautiful.

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